For today’s conversation, please take a few minutes to watch this video with Chuck Colson, Greg Boyd and Shane Claiborne having a very open and honest discussion that needs to take place in the church.
As we’ve been going through our Please Forgive James series, one of the discussions we’ve been having is about how we reach into a culture that seems to be ostracized and hurt by the church.
Our church in particular reaches out to many people whose lives have been devastated through various addictions, such as drugs and alcohol. In what ways can we reach out to other groups of people who have been ostracized or hurt by the church both personally and as a church in general without in any way compromising who we are?
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One of my pet peeves is when Christians expect individuals who have no relationship with Jesus Christ to live by His commandments; as if someone without God’s grace and the power of the Holy Spirit could even do that. Individuals in the Church have to stop being shocked by the behavior of those still enslaved to sin. We also need to realize that befriending a sinner is not condoning their behavior. It often takes time to earn the right to speak into a persons life. I know for me my older brother was an example, and offered to share Christ’s love with me for years before I was ready to listen.
When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well He was not shocked that she’d had so many husbands or that she was living in sin at the time. He went straight to her problem, that she was and would remain enslaved to sin with out His intervention.
I am not shocked by Homosexual behavior, nor the desire of those caught-up in this particular sin to fight to be seen as normative in our society. They are slaves to sin, unable to change under their own power and in need of a new life in Christ. And well meaning Churches that place there em-promoter on their behavior (or any other sin) do them no good, but rather keep them enslaved and separated from God.
Any time I am confuted with any type of sin that might cause me to recoil or withhold the love and forgiveness God has to offer, I allow Paul’s words to echo in my mind. “And such where some of you, but you were washed….”
I think homosexuality shocks most Christians because I believe the tendency is to view it is a fairly recent sinful development in earth’s history. But there is at least one reference to it in Genesis, and laws concerning it in the following books. Homosexuality isn’t new. It’s old. Why should we be shocked that that sin is still continuing today?
Even aside from the shock, if we can honestly answer yes to the question ‘do you believe?’, can we honestly even act like there is a “deal breaker” sin?
I think the church should be more clear on what sin actually is – disobedience to God, which can be deliberate or not (sin is a part of our nature). Homosexuality is not alone in that, even if it does seem to be the most obvious. We should also be more clear on why God tells us not to do certain things. The normal belief is that Christians can’t have fun. But God isn’t telling us to not have fun. He’s a Parent above everything else, and He’s going to try to keep you from putting that penny into the electrical outlet; He’s going to try to keep you from putting metal in the microwave; He’s going to try to keep you from touching the stove top. Unfortunately, we tend to view His instructions as keeping us from having fun – until we get hurt; then we understand, and wish we had listened.
I think that if we could communicate these things, Christians would not be viewed as being judgmental nearly as much, and people wouldn’t be as hostile to the idea of God – at least, not for the same reason. No matter if it’s a loving parent or a militaristic figure, nobody likes being told what to do. But how much better to know the loving parent than the drill sergeant.
Somewhere along the way we lost love and compassion. Not necessarily as individuals but collectively as Christians. Being fresh out of high school I may not have a very broad worldview, but I realize the “bad rap” we have against us. We so deserve it too. Somewhere along the line, we started labeling people by their sin and started elevating ourselves above them.
Have we forgotten the imperfection that lies within ourselves so quickly that when we see a fellow human struggling to find and fill an unknown void, we cut him down and make him feel like the scum of the earth; only to turn around and tell him that Jesus loves him?
Homosexuals are also beautiful people.
Druggies are also created in God’s image.
The sin that is evident in their lives lies dormant in every one of us, because we are all born equally in sin. Jesus is the only difference between us.
The most effective, shocking method of evangelism I found in high school anyway, was unselfish love.
We should be filled with humility, and have so much love and compassion for broken people that we don’t know what to do with it because God had that compassion and love for us.
God loves all of us broken people.
I realized I did not answer Tri’s question in my last post, so…
The apostle Paul, seeking to follow Jesus’ example, sought be be ll things to all people. This does not mean Christians should lower God’s standard “perfection” (which no-one can attain without Him) it means we seek to meet individuals were they are at. If more Churches took a clue from the Real estate market and applied “Location, location, location” to where they hold services, then many people who would never otherwise step foot in a Church would have an opportunity to hear, and respond to the message of forgiveness in Jesus Christ.
I personally used to hold a “Beer and Bible study” group for construction workers while I was earning my Bachelors in Biblical studies. However if the conservative Bible College I went to had heard of it i would have been expelled. Many times I had the pleasure of hearing guys in the group say “I have never really understood what becoming a Christian meant until now”. I now there is a church service that is held at the Busted Shovel a bar in downtown Meridian. This is a perfect example of this level of compassion and commitment to take a good news of forgiveness through Jesus to a place were people gather who would likely not come to a tradition church. If Jesus himself was accused by the self-righteous religious leaders of his day for associating with sinners, then hats off and God Bless any church or individual Christian who is reaching out to a hurting world and meeting them were they are at, even geographically.
I’m glad to see the discussion of homosexuality, I passionately believe this is a group that the church has severely “left out”
One of my best friends is gay. The church has abandoned him (literally a pastor stopped talking to him, someone who had been a mentor) when he found out about his lifestyle choice. )
I agree with an earlier comment, as Christians we tend to “order” sin in a way of “worst to “not-so-bad-really-especially-if-you-don’t-get-caught”. Sin is sin is sin. We’re all sinners, gay or straight. The bible talks more about gossip and controlling the tongue or giving to the poor,than homosexuality.
The church is missing out on the beauty and gifting of people because of how we prioritize sin! And lots of hurting people are missing out on God’s love and power in their lives!!
My husband and I are new to the church and thrilled about the discussion and “realness” (is that a word?) that we’ve seen! Thanks!! We feel like this church is the first “real deal” church we’ve found in a long time!
I’m curious, do the readers agree that there is a big difference between unbelievers who sin and Christians who sin? In the video one person talked about people engaged in homosexual behavior finding a a place in the Church. Whether the sin is Fornication either homosexual or heterosexual, stealing, murder, lying, slandering, adultery or any other vice. The church should never be a home for sinners. It is the body of believers who have surrendered their lives to the authority of Jesus Christ and the word of God. Christians may sin ( and if they are unrepentant should undergo church discipline) but the church is not to be a place of “Fellowship” for unbelievers it should be a place for hearing about the love of Christ that will lead to repentance, transformation and a NEW life in Christ. I do not mean to sound uncompassionate but I fear sometimes we misunderstand who and what “the church” really is.
Patrick, I do agree with you, there is a difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning Christian – but only because of Christ’s involvement. The Christian does not necessarily sin out of bondage (though he/she may not be claiming victory over sin’s bondage), but more out of the sinful human nature. That is something that will not be eliminated until Jesus returns – so until then, the church is a gathering of sinners who believe in Christ.
Of course, I’m not saying Christians are off the hook as far as sin goes. A relationship with Christ makes a person want to change and become sinless, as He is sinless. If that desire is not there, then the Christian is not fully awake, or in another example, has become lukewarm. And ultimately, that’s something that only God can fix.
Patrick,
I guess I view all of us as sinners. Sin is sin whether committed by a non-believer or a believer. We will wrestle with our flesh until Christ returns….believer or non-believer. When we except Christ he pays the price for or sin and fleshly behavior. As we know Christ more and more hopefully we sin less and less…but as Brenna pointed out this will be a struggle until the perfect comes…being Jesus.
As far as the church not being a home to sinners. I have to disagree. Jesus hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, gluttons, pharisees etc. He broke bread with them and had fellowship. When confronted by the pharisees regarding the company he kept Jesus said, “is it not the sick who need a physician?”
If the church isn’t or can’t be a home to sinners then all it is is a social club for those who think they have it together. More of that “us” and “them”. Ick! Jesus and the disciples never isolated from hanging out with those who struggled with sin. I have had a couple friends who have come just to hang out at church and eventually either accept Christ or at least say, “Hey that Vineyard isn’t like other churches..if I went to church that’s were I would go.”
Matt
Brenna I agree except that the church is a gathering of believers, not sinners. In Christ we are a NEW creation, the old “sinner” is dead Gal 2:20. It may seam I am splitting hairs, but it is normal for sinners to sin. It is not normal for new creations in Christ to sin. I think this is another reason that the world sees christians as hypocrites because we fall short of God’s standard when we have the Holy Spirit and then many expect those who do not have the Holy Sprit to be able to keep it.
I certainly agree with previous posts that it is not our place to judge or condemn others caught up in the sin of homosexuality. I especially like the story of the Samaritan woman at the well as an example of Jesus being neither surprised nor offended at our sins. It is Jesus’ response that stirred up the following thoughts in me. He plainly laid out the difference between the water she was drawing from the well and the water He was offering. One answer to the question of how to reach out to a people who have been ostracized by the church is to show love and compassion for them while making it clear the difference between their life and our own. We cannot compromise what the word teaches us about sin and the affects that this “water which will not quench our thirst” has on our lives. For the people to want to know about Christ they must see something in us which is different and attractive. Holy Spirit must do the convicting. We are called to pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus. If I believe that God is above and loves the homosexual and wishes a different life for them then much weight is lifted from my yoke, for he is the Author and perfecter of their faith not me. I am simply called to deal with my own stuff while being open for the Spirit to use me. So the answer to the question for me is: turn to Jesus and say, “use me Lord as you see fit!” While scary it also exciting!
Matt, perhaps I have a different definition of home when speaking of the church. I am NOT saying that unbelievers should not be welcome at a church. I mean that it will not be a home for them and they can not truly be part of God’s family until they come to Him through Christ. I would open my home up to anyone, but they can not be part of my family unless they are born or adopted into it. That is what Christ does He adopts sinners and gives them a new identity “Christian”. Yes we are all sinners saved by grace, but when we surrender our lives to Christ we are born again into a new identity in Christ. And that identity caries with it unique responsibility to keep His commandments if we say that we love Him. John 14:15 ” If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”
When my children failed to follow my command or the rules in my home did I love them less? The answer is no. They knew I loved them by my behavior toward them. Thus, when I would bring correction they knew (maybe not at the moment) I did it in love. Jesus never condons sin, but does forgive. After forgiving he would state “Go and sin no more.” The believer should be appalled and horrified by by sin, though anything other than perfect behavior and thought is sin. Why because it interferes with our relationship with God in the same way it interfered with my relationship with my chidren. And by the way, what is the purpose of the law? It’s purpose is show what sin is. It with the conviction of the Holy Spirit (not us) brings sinners to repentance. So do I reject the homosexual? No, I am commanded to love in the manner my Savior did. But I should not condon the sin of person claiming to be a christian. As a matter of fact Jesus tended to jump down the throats of hypocritical church folk.
I would be interested to hear some discussion about criteria for membership of the church, the role of the leadership structure as an authority over the body of believers, the New Testament practice of confessing sins to each other, the rebuking and correcting of believers who continue in sin without repentance. These are thorny issues that I have seen handled with mixed results in previous churches.
My question to all of you (except to Amy who posted above) is do any of you really even know a gay person? Are you friends with anyone who is gay? Do you really care for someone who is gay? Do you cry for them? Do you laugh with them? Do you cheer them on when they accomplish their dreams? Do you hold them when they’ve been hurt? Do you pray for God to intervene for them when they go for their HIV testing? Do you get angry when someone spits hateful comments at them? Do you love them?
I think it’s really easy to sit and philosophize and theologize about what we ought to do as Christians and what we think we should be as the Church and make up a motto or a rule as to how we’re gonna treat gays IF they were to somehow make their way into our pew on Sunday…but are we really living what we say?
This is a very difficult subject…I don’t think there is an easy answer. My sarcasm is speaking right back at myself (so don’t feel judged…I’m saying this to myself too)
And in truth…one of my best friends is gay…I’ve been friends with him for almost 2o years. We’ve been there for each other through good times and bad. And this will tweek yer theology…he loves God and he loves serving people in the name of God and he pours his heart out to Jesus and he prays like any other man I know. And he hurts like any other man I know. And he goes to church and serves in church like many men I know.
We went to Bible college together. He and i have had in-depth discussions and heart to heart talks about all of this gay stuff and church stuff.
He and I see some things differently.
There have been moments when I’ve wrestled with his choice of lifestyle (wanting desperately for him to somehow “change” and be “normal”) and I’ve gone to him broken hearted to seek understanding and we’ve both held each other in tears. He was miserable before he “came out” and is miserable even now that he is “out”. And yet what it all comes down to is that he is seeking exactly what we all seek….love.
And he and I see some things similarly.
I know many Christians who struggle with addictions or anger or gossip or pride or judging or whatever sin you want to name…and though we say to those Christians “well, let’s pray about that together that God will help you overcome” and perhaps we lead them to a discipleship group for ministry or counseling or sponsor them to go to Plumbline or to CR or just faithfully pray for them and love on them and we pat ourselves on the back and feel content that though the person may not yet have a complete healing over their anger or over their addiction or over their fears or whatever….we can be reassured that they are born again believers, they have their place in heaven but they just need some help with the every day stuff and well…it’s between them and God and they’ll work it out together….besides they’ve had a rough life so they do have a lot of issues. That’s okay.
So we still worship with them. We still pray with them. We still go shopping with them. We still go to the movies with them. We still have coffee with them. We still have them over to our homes for dinner. Whatever. Heck…we’re probably one of them!
Why can’t we say that for the gay person?
Other than being what Jesus asked us to be…I don’t think there is an easy answer.
We have made it so complicated.
Patrick,
I think you are forgetting something. Sin, being part of our human nature (which does not go away even while we are a new creation), is not necessarily something we choose to participate in. Why else would Paul say in Romans 7:18: “I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.” If even Paul struggled with doing what is good – even while doing all the amazing things for God that he did – than how can I expect myself to somehow ‘get it’ just because I am a new creation? Has God’s method evolved since Paul’s time?
Even aside from that, a lifetime of sin is really hard to change. Humans are extremely habitual creatures, and the hardest thing to do is break a habit – no matter how much we want to. Becoming a Christian, we become a new creation, but we still have the same habitual body. So the new creation will not be entirely complete until we lose this sinful nature, which will not happen until Christ returns. Believers are just as much sinners as nonbelievers; we just don’t have to pay the price for it, and we have Christ to assist us in removing those habits of sin. But it isn’t an overnight kind of thing. (If only it were that easy!) Instead, believers who were alcoholics still have to be careful with/around alcohol, if they can even be around it without relapsing; believers who were codependents still have to carefully maintain those healthy boundaries; believers who had resentments still have to work through them.
The new creation, while we are still on this earth in these bodies, is more about not having to sin anymore. We have what we were searching for, the thing that fills that gap that sinful habits try to fill. We have freedom and victory in Christ! But it is something that we have to choose to claim in all areas of our life. That is something that I have very recently realized, at the same time that I realized that I have not been claiming it. But again, living in that freedom and victory in Christ takes time to tear down old habits and build new ones.
Personally, I believe defining believers as being no longer sinners because they are a new creation can be harmful, especially to the new believer. It gives a very strong implication that Christ is a fix-all-right-now kind of thing, and so I think it is dangerous. It can too easily be turned into a sales pitch – “Tired of alcoholism? addiction to drugs? sexual sins? Can’t seem to get out of them yourself? Become a new creation in Christ, and He’ll take care of those things for you!” While it is true that He will help you take care of those problems, He is not an overnight fix-all kind of God – and a representation like this very much makes Him sound like one.
And that is very dangerous. What if someone comes to Christ expecting that? They wouldn’t get it – from what I know of God, He prefers to work with you to deal with your stuff. It’s part of the relationship. But here’s this new believer, believing whole-heartedly that God will edit out all those old habits. When nothing happens, what is going to be the new believer’s response? I can see 2 things happening: 1) They will decide it was all a gimmick and refuse to have anything to do with God or the church because it’s not true, or 2) they will constantly be in fear that they’re doing something wrong, that they aren’t really a Christian yet – and if that perception of God isn’t changed quickly, they will probably leave the church thinking that they just weren’t good enough.
Maybe you might think I’m taking it a little too far with the sales pitch thing, but honestly, the traditional invitation to accept Christ as your personal Savior sounds like a sales pitch. “God has a wonderful plan for your life. He doesn’t want you to be hurting. Pray this prayer now, and you can begin that wonderful journey with Him.” And while all of the above is true, does it really paint an accurate picture? Does it give any impression of how difficult it will be, being in the world but not of it? Does it mention that ‘wonderful’ is being used according to God’s definition – just like an artist (i.e., Picasso)? Does it mention that it won’t feel like a wonderful journey until you finally get to higher ground and can look back and appreciate how far you’ve come? Does it give any hint about how much work will be involved on that hike of a journey?
The answer is no. It paints this pretty picture of ‘you are my shepherd, I have no needs; you lead me by peaceful streams, and you refresh my life’. But what about the ‘though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil’? We can’t leave that part out and expect the new believer to be okay just because they have Jesus now.
This is something I have struggled with about the church for a LONG time, so it’s not my attacking you, Patrick, or anyone else. I have personally witnessed the hurt and anger that comes from expecting sunshine and peaceful streams and everything being all better after accepting Christ, and having the opposite happen.
revelatorart, I used to date women and am now a straight married christian woman and have lots of gay friends. I dont condone the lifestyle to them nor do I need to. what else can i do but show love and acceptance so that when they desire a change they feel comfortable coming to talk with me. I share where I am at, what my beliefs are etc but love is the universal language here. we are all sinners, I just have christ and others dont unfortunately. people are interested in christ and through the process change their lifestyle ~stop smoking, using profanity, gambling, etc, its by the spirit we are convicted to change. if someone told me I had to do all those things up front I probably would not have made it. It took time for the Lord to soften my heart and make me willing to desire change while I was deepening my relationship with him, Praise God! Today I am not homeless, I dont use drugs, I am more conservative and normal then I ever had wanted to be and I love it, I am free in Christ! If sinners arent welcome in church I never would have been allowed to go
When I first accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior I was not presented to the church congregation I had been attending as part of the church family until I was baptized and I could not be baptized until I could show that I fully understood what decision I was making and that my life had changed. This is the same model we see in the New Testament when Paul was converted he went away to study and “show himself approved” before he presented himself to the emerging church.
Church services are and should be open to anyone, and we all should have people we love in our lives who do have not yet encountered the living God. But I guess it bothers me to call any sin a “lifestyle” or “choice” would we characterize a thief as having a robbers lifestyle, is adulatory a lifestyle? I have to daily make the same choice the homosexual or gossip, or liar does who comes to Christ. I have to choose to not act on my sinful desires. 1 Corinthians 10:13 Prior to coming to Christ this is not possible, so all sin is the same. So I do not think the question should be do we have people who are engaged in homosexual behavior in our lives. The question should be are we reaching out to people with the love of Christ no matter what sin has them enslaved. I am not trying to say the Christian new or mature can live a sinless life, but when I came to Christ it was not effort on my part to leave drugs, alcohol, lying, filthy speech behind. The power of the Holy Spirit gave me the ability to finally make the choice to NOT sin. So now when fall into behavioral sin I know it is because in that moment of choice I choose to satisfy my fleshly desire more than I choose to love God. I can not blame it on my flesh because God has given me the power to overcome the flesh if I will apply it.
In what ways can we reach out to other groups of people who have been ostracized or hurt by the church both personally and as a church in general without in any way compromising who we are?
… the only way is to stop looking at people as projects. as fish that we have to catch before we can clean. people are God’s beautiful children – we have no right to say anything unless we are in relationship with that person and have earned the right through trust, honest and friendship to speak into someone’s life.
speck, speck. speck. let’s worry about the planks in our own eyes. i’m telling you – there is nothing more attractive than someone chasing Jesus. people naturally bend their heads, trying to see what it is you have your eyes set on – the best way to lead someone to the Lord is to be so busy chasing Him, so overflowing with His love and grace that they begin to follow along. i’m not sure that pushing someone to Christ ever worked.
it was the Lord that removed the scales from Saul’s eyes – not any men. it just wouldn’t have worked.
so, until we can just love love love and embrace and lay down judgement we will have no efficacy at all.
Patrick,
I wasn’t trying to portray that if someone sins, they can say, ‘oh, it’s my flesh, it’s not really me, so I’m okay’. I’m saying, while Christians do have the ability to claim victory over the sinful nature of humanity, they have to choose to do so. It’s not something that God immediately hands over. You have to choose to give up sinful habits day after day after day until finally you’ve built a new, healthy habit. And guess what? Once you’re done fixing that habit, there’s a whole lot more to take a look at and fix. (I’m using the ‘you’ that encompasses more than just one person here, just to make that clear.) That’s part of why we will never really achieve our goal until Christ returns – there is just so much stuff that we have to work through and change about ourselves to become sinless.
And again, the believer should not be okay with staying like he/she was before Christ. If a believer doesn’t mind it, then he/she needs to wake up – but that isn’t our job, that is God’s. And He’ll do it, too. Take me, for example. Late 2005 to mid 2007, that was me – I was sleeping, I was lukewarm, whatever example you want to use (I prefer lukewarm because it fits better with my ending analogy). But in the middle of 2007, God put me back on the burner. He raised the heat pretty gradually – I almost didn’t even know what was going on until suddenly I was almost at the boiling point a couple months ago. After He put me on the burner, I started craving Him – so I started coming to church again, I started getting. I became that consumer Tri talks about in 101, all over again, because I was just dry. But a couple months ago, I hit that point where I’m not okay with just getting. I’m really not wanting to continue my sinful habits, and I’m really wanting to get more and more of God’s love so I can just love on people.
There are people who I’m sure had the urge to wake me up, or put me on the burner, themselves – my parents, probably, at the front of the line. And God did use their encouragement to assist the process, but they could not get me there. If they had tried to pick me up and put me where I’m supposed to be, it would have had the opposite effect.
To Revelatorart,
I actually have a couple of gay friends. They have all expressed being hurt by christians. That’s why when in the video Colson says he has never seen a christian bashing a gay person…he either is not telling the truth or lives a pretty sheltered life surrounded by churched people.
I love my gay friends and I find it interesting that they are happy in their relationships and seem to have a better longevity in their relationship than a lot of married heterosexual christian marriages. In fact I have one of the above mentioned friends coming to town to hang out with a group of us whom she knows are christians, but first she sees us as friends. I love the quote from Billy Graham: It is God’s job to judge, the holy spirit’s to convict and our job is to love.
Peace,
Matt
I do NOT agree that church is a fellowship of believers and should exclude unbelievers. If we exclude ANYONE regardless of their beliefs, how can we take the Word to the world? If anyone (including believers…) is so righteous that they can judge anyone “unfit” to fellowship with us then I guess I need to find another fellowship. (or… who is first to throw the stone?….)
We need to start with our children and instill healthy self images, counter the media bombardment of immorality, and teach the difference between sex and glorious Godly love.
If we can’t find agreement as a church, how can we reach those that feel ostracized by us?
/end of ramble
Ron you hit the nail on the head. In my opinion we (the modern church) do evangelism backwards. Instead of Sunday morning being a time of training and discipleship for the Christian so they are equipped to take the gospel out into their community, it has become like a theater where we expect a pastor to deliver the good news we ourselves should be communicating to an unbelieving world. I am not suggesting non believers should not be welcome at a church service, just that the primary purpose should be the training and nurturing of the family of God so we grow in our walk and continue the process of regeneration.
Shepherds (Pastors) tend sheep, and sheep produce other sheep.
Joy to the world and peace to all men! This is our message and notice it is to the world – that includes the unsaved everywhere – and it is to ALL men (and women) – all Mankind. That includes every imaginable lifestyle including homosexuals. Many of us have homosexual relatives and friends and partners at work. We accept them and like them, if they are relatives we may also love them. We should feel no differently as Christians.
Satan loves to confuse us and emotionally disturb us, because then we humans go into fight or flight mode and either run away from moral issues or fight which turns into complaint, resentment anger and hatred. Nothing makes him happier. It goes both ways – confusion makes some homophobes and makes some To separate from him we have to step back and go past the smoke and mirrors of the issue. It seems to me that there are several separate issues. I have already mentioned our attitude towards the individual homosexual – a son or daughter of God who for whatever reason has been ensnared in one of the devil’s many traps.
Then there is homosexuality. This is an activity that opposes God’s principle. Malachi states that God’s purpose in creating us is to have “goodly offspring.” In Gen 1:28 He gives us three blessings. Be fruitful, mature to be individuals with God’s love as the center of our mind leading the actions of our bodies. As Jesus said, “Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48). On that foundation God’s blesses us in marriage and multiplying His lineage through having children.
Marriage is a very important step in this process. God created everything in the cosmos in pairs; from proton and electron in atoms, positive and negative ions in molecules, stamen and pistil in plants, male and female animals and men and women. By the give and take between the two a circular and therefore eternal circuit of love is formed. It has to be absolute. Once the circuit is broken then God’s love cannot flow. Marriage in important because it brings a couple together in this absolute love and together through absolute sex the couple become parents and raise children. In this way we grow through four realms of love: children’s love for our parents, then love for our siblings to conjugal love as husband and wife and finally to experience God’s sacrificial love as parents. (As I write I am listening to Faith Hill singing “A baby changes everything”).
In the Garden Lucifer derailed this growth process and separated Adam and Eve from our Heavenly Father’s love through an illicit relationship, defiling the lineage and setting himself up as a false father. That is the problem we all face. Homosexuality is just one form of that deviated love that destroys God’s ideal of the family. We know that it is Biblically wrong and God destroyed Sodom for their proclivity; there are also many studies that show it creates emotional, psychological and medical problems as well. The media portrays it as just an alternative lifestyle to choose a partner of the same sex but I have yet to hear them describe the lurid details of buggery, fisting and other homosexual practices. So as Christians I believe we should love the sinner but hate the sin.
Homosexuals and homosexuality have been around a very long time. By and large it has been kept quiet, in the shadows but with some tacit acceptance by many Christians, just as people knew other sins such as incest have been practiced in society, including by some leaders.
What is new is the ideology now promoted in the world, which I will call homosexualism. This goes against creation and uses Darwinism to suggest there is a homosexual gene and so they are born that way and can never change. This also implies there can be no salvation for them, which is designed to turn them away from the hope. It suggests that homosexuality is a normal part of our culture and a partnership between people of the same sex is the same as marriage. Like all satan’s ideologies (Nazism, Communism, Feminism etc.) it is rooted in complaint and resentment and seeks to gain power through destroying God’s realm. There is always a reason, but it is not justified. It uses the devil’s word (lie) and misinformation to twist the truth. We find it being taught to our children in school, accepted and even practiced by public idols, promoted by researchers (the gay gene). This is the real enemy that we, as Christians, are fighting today.
I do not say enemy lightly. Just as God promises his kingdom the enemy, the prince and ruler of this world wants to keep and expand his dominion. Europe has held the flame of the Christian spirit for two millennia, but now hedonism and secularism dominate the spiritual landscape. Where is God’s fortress?
It is here in America, a special nation prepared by God. America’s base is in the Christian Judeo faith and in democracy that developed from men of faith with Christian principles. Some say the enlightenment Deists were not Christians. Maybe not in the strict sense but certainly they believed in God and His Divine law, and were one with Christian ethics. From the Pilgrim Father’s, William Penn and the Quakers, the founding of Maryland for Catholics to Washington, Lincoln and Rev. Dr. King Americans have been led by God. America has saved the world in two great wars and against a worldwide atheist ideology. For these sacrifices God has blessed America.
So where and what does the enemy want to destroy the most? America, Christianity and Democracy. He always uses the same plan he has used from the start: find ways to destroy the family. The ideology of homosexualism is a major part of that strategy. Make it a mainstream part of accepted society, with homosexual partners being equal to heterosexuals, able to adopt and raise children in that realm, and you destroy the sanctity and holiness of marriage, you take God and Jesus out of the equation. America then goes the way of the Roman Empire.
So what is our best weapon to combat this? Once again, as always it is love. Part of the problem with our modern world is that the so called “Nuclear family” is not the ideal and does not work. That is the base for Satan’s complaint and why some people turn to the homosexual lifestyle – they feel more love than they did with abusive mothers or fathers; or they suffered a loss of love through parents who separated or through having step-parents who did not love them. Sadly Christians are just as much to blame for this as non Christians.
As Christians we have to have and to show a higher standard of love, absolute love between husband and wife, no pornography, no affairs and no adultery. If we have pure love in families and purity before marriage (no free sex or fornication) we can change the world. When people see and feel such love who would want to be homosexual?
Joy to the world and peace to all men!
Two final comments on the long blong above. I believe we have to be bold and strong and give the truth about homosexualism, expose it for what it is and be clear about the details of the physical relationship.
Second, we have to move from the nuclear family to a more traditional “Cellular family” which has the nucleus of the nuclear family but that is just the center of the cell composed of grandparents, grandchildren, siblings families and cousins living together as a clan, supporting each other. Such families would have a clesr feeling of connection to past, present and future through having lineage.
This would anchor and align the family. The Jewish faith are proud to claim Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as their ancestors. This has kept Judaism alive for four thousand years.
Don’t be shocked if when we reach out in love we get the type of reaction seen on the following link, about Pastor Rick Waren’s selection to pray Obama’s Inaugural Invocation.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/17/obama.warren/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Wow! This a deep and productive section of this blog! Just one little practical thing that at least I have found for myself when sharing Christ. If you are up front, especially with people you don’t know real well and say something like “there is something in my life so important to me..would it be alright if I shared with you about who I believe God is, what he has done for us and why he is so important to me” it is much better received. I so many times in the past have waited for an opening so I could try and slide it in. This way it keeps it honest and people don’t feel like you’re trying to be sneaky. I also think one of the things the above comments have pointed out in regards to salvation is that regeneration(our heart of stone being replaced with a heart of flesh) has been replaced by decisionism. Our salvation is a supernatural work of God that only comes through repentance and faith. If we are born again we will begin to hate our old sinful ways and love the things of God that we despised before. That process will continue for our whole life in a greater and greater degree and at a different pace for everyone. Many people have made some kind of decision for Christ but never repented and so there is no change in their life. So when we share we need to speak of sin and repentance and belief in Christ’s finished work…In regards to the church I agree that it is absolutely for believers. We should get filled and challenged so we can take the message to the world all week long. Should we welcome in non-believers? YES! Seek them out and love them? YES! But what shouldn’t happen is the message gets watered down so non believers are not offended…last thing and I know this won’t be popular with many. I know a popular way to witness is to hand out books like The Shack, Rob Bell’s Nooma videos and Brian Mclaren books. Beware! The worst deception comes looking like light on the outside. I was stunned to see Mclaren suggested for a resource. Dig deeper into these new age things and I think you might be surprised. If you spend the time to do so you might hear a familiar dark voice “did God really say”?….In all of it I hope the word servant rings in our spirit. peace…..
feminism – satan’s ideology? … i am not sure that i have words to express what this does to my brain – but it involves swelling and throbbing.
To D,
Can you explain why you feel that McClaren, Bell and the Shack are “New Age” and deceptive? I have read from all of these authors and find my spirtual life and growth in Christ have deepened tremendously. I think each of these authors comes at the walk with Christ from a different angle but fail to see how they are “New Age” as you put it. It is always good to challenge our faith, what believe and why.
Matt
Thanks for following up on my post. Yes we want to be challeged for the truth of our lives but shouldn’t we take everything we read and hear and hold it up to the light of scripture?
The claims the God of The Shack makes for example. Those things may make us cry and warm our toes but does the God of scripture make the same claims? I would spell some stuff out but I type with one finger so here is a link to get started on what I’m talking about: http://www.leadingtheway.org/site/PageServer?pagename=sto_TheShack_13heresies
In regards to Rob Bell. I was a Nooma video junkie but as I went deeper with his teachings I got completely creeped out. http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=707&c=1
Obviously the links i give are not a authoratative, difinitive source. There is only one of those and it is the Bible. I encourage all of us to dig deep(in the word of God) and examine these new teachings and not validate them because we got all warm and fuzzy…Oh in regards to Mclaren just type in his name and add heresy and you could spend a week…Blessings
I struggle with lust and pornography. By “struggle” I do not mean to say that I am losing that struggle, but it is a struggle, a battle with my “old man”. However, that “old man” is not only “old”, but dead, cut off from life. He is dying. Thus, as I pursue the One that kills him, he dies more every day.
I see my struggle as a sexual issue, even though my acting out is only “by myself”. Just as others struggle with being attracted to members of the same sex, I struggle with wanting to look at what I shouldn’t. Difference? No, save some fight, some don’t.
The only difference I see between a believer and a non-believer in this is the believer refuses to be identified by his struggle. The non-believer knows nothing else, and thus embraces that identity. Call me brainwashed by CR, but I see all of us as having the same basic “addiction”. All our dysfunctional behavior stems from one place — the bite of the fruit that should not have been bitten.
But I take issue with those who say that those in Christ are still sinners. I don’t believe this to be true. We are in transition, but we are not simply holding until the resurrection. No, my friends, the kingdom is coming NOW. My own life is testament to this. For my struggle has not remained the same. It has, in the last five years, greatly changed. While I still have slips and bumps along the way, I am a different man than I was even six months ago.
We are saints in process, but saints nonetheless. This is not to be arrogant about, for we must never forget where we came from, for two reasons: our humility, and to be thankful to God. I refuse to be called a sinner. Not because I don’t like the term, but because CHRIST HAS AND IS AND WILL CONTINUE to transform me.
His work is now, His work is ongoing.
Ironically, I believe it is those believers who secretly still identify themselves as their struggles, that come down the hardest on sinners.
But a saint must realize only One will judge, and heaven help me if I forget that. Heaven help me. For it is by GRACE I have been saved, through FAITH, and this not of myself, it is THE GIFT OF GOD. Not so that I might ever boast. A gift is free, no expectations. No strings attached. It is a risky and daring thing to do.
And that’s why it works.
All this to say, I judge no one, I refuse to tell others how to live their lives, all I can do is speak of my own life and struggles, and try to relate through that. If you spend enough time looking at our struggles, I think you’ll come to the realization of how much you have in common with a homosexual. And there’s your in.
Brandon
On key point that I forgot to end with, though, is you won’t ever come to that realization if you don’t know anyone struggling with homosexuality.
Time to be in the world but not of it.
And remember, it was Christ who said, “Go and sin no more.” But it was not in condemnation, rather, a call to new life! In other words, “Go, and don’t do what you no longer have to do!” While we must not be judgmental of any sinner OR saint who struggles with any kind of sin, for those who know Christ, we MUST celebrate that we, personally, have the strength and power in Jesus Christ to “Go and sin no more.” This is not a rebuke! This is not a slam! (And is judging another not sin, since it was Christ Himself who said, “Judge not, let ye be judged?”)
This is a proclamation of great and daring power, that should be celebrated with much dancing and feasting! Could we only comprehend in a greater way how HE HAS ALREADY WON!! I seek for that joy every day, because as I realize that the hands trying to cover my eyes and ears belong to a desperately defeated foe, I can remove them and live in a daily victory.
Glory to God!
Brandon,
Thanks for your sharing and insights. I often forget that I am in process. It seems like I polarize and either become arrogant and act like I have it all figured out or I become so riddled with guilt I feel totally defeated, worthless and broken. If I/we can see that I/we will fall down…but through Christ can get back up again that is revolutionary.
I struggle with anger from past hurts and often wait till things build and then explode and say and do things I don’t mean. I have hurt a lot of people..just as I was hurt. Sin has a vicious cycle that only Jesus can break. Thank-you Jesus.
Matt
WOW! I just finished reading all the posts and I have a lot to take in. Something that I wanted to mention, something discovered at CR, is that each of us, no matter how close to God we may be, will slip and fall at times. We are not immune to relapse or sin.
I graduated my 12 step last night and one of the things I shared, and I think it is important for everyone to understand the following point, is that I relapsed like crazy with my rage for almost 2 years. At first I would get down on myself for relapsing and would get the mindset of “Why bother…Im just going to fail again.” I finally came to realize that each time I relapsed, I wasnt failing, I was just learning a way that didnt work. I was stepping out of my insanity.
I think the way we relate to people can fit into that. If we tackle each person we come across the same way, we will fail. We cannot reach everyone the same way. If we do that, we are shutting ourselves off from being used by God. We are basically telling Him that we know the way to do it, we dont need His help. There were people He was very direct with, and other people He reached through a parable. He didnt do the same every time, so why do we think we will be able to?
I have had several friends and bosses who were gay, and I learned something valuable from each one. I learned how to be a better listener, I learned how to really see beyond the outside(though I still struggle with this daily) and I learned how to really appreciate someone.
I want to challenge us…think back on all the times you have felt helpless and like you couldnt go on. Chances are that there was someone there that carried you through it. Isnt it time we returned the favor? I dont care what the sexual orientation is or what the belief is, we can be Christ to someone just simply by offering our hand.
End of ramble…
Ya, in response to Matt and D’s discussion of Brian McLaren and The Shack. It’s funny when I bought The Shack at the Vineyard bookstore Mike Freeman acted a little worried about selling it to me, and the cashier warned me that it was not the Bible.
Don’t be fooled, yes. Whether we call everyone a heretic, another trap. I recently had this discussion on another blog, with an expert on heresy research. This “expert”, who is still a friend of mine, also tried to sell me on calling John Wimber a heretic. I had to laugh.
Be sure, the Devil will even use the Bible. It doesn’t have to be The Shack, for the Devil to use it to mess with your mind.
Sorry, for those of you that don’t like the confusion of that “second” voice in your head. I’m not even going there tonight.
D,
I will check out the link for the Shack…I just skimmed it. Seems a bit legalistic at first glance. We must also remember that many of the apocolyptic descriptions used by Jesus have a lot that is figurative (see N.T. Wrights, “The Challenge of Jesus). We can’t read those so literally. I certainly don’t look at the Shack as the Gospel truth and temper it with the Word, but we are all creative beings and can look at the same thing from different angles. If we believe in the trinity, which I do, then a part of God did die on the cross. Jesus was God come in the form of man if I’m reading my bible correctly. I will give this article a deeper look to be fair.
As for the link lighthousetrails.com, they refute and comdemn just about everybody and call just about everybody a heritic…so they have little credibility in my book. There website should go next to the definition of legalism in the Dictionary. The Word has to be read in context to it’s day and time.
D,
Just searched John Wimber on LighthouseTrails, and you guessed they think he is a heratic too.
We read the Shack at the beginning of this year in our Discipleship Group. At first I really thought it almost bizaare, but as we went through it and discussed it I gained a lot. It really makes you think and yes the main message is very solid – you have to love your brother and you can’t go forward until you forgive and ultimately you have to face yourself, be transparent and repent. Don’t get stuck in the past but live for now.
The Trinity take the form of races who we as Caucasians and as Christians have often put down, the Holy Spirit is untraditionally feminine which makes me think yes, God made us in His image, male and female, yes God is not just our Heavenly Father but also our Heavenly Mother. We are reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which suggests Jesus is the male parent and the Holy Spirit is the female parent. Now that may be heretical, but then so was Galileo, Copernicus and printing the Bible in English or German.
My thanks to Ian and Dory for choosing this book that really challenged me and deepened my faith. My thanks to our group for making it so inspiring. If it deepens you faith then what does it matter if someone thinks it is Heresy?
Like I said I would just use those sights as a springboard not an authoratative source which I figured you would do and did but oh well(you could easy find 100+ sites on the horror of the false teaching of these three) I had hoped you would do more matching up of scripture for yourself. My opinion is all three sources take us away from the word of God and create a new god that in the end forgives everybody and nobody is judged so we just need to do good things and God is pleased. Sadly, that is the god that has many all excited but I can’t find him in the Bible, help me here! Lucas:”Don’t be fooled, yes. Whether we call everyone a heretic, another trap.” Well first if by everyone you mean these three, Shack, Mclaren, Bell then ok i’m in on that, if you are addressing my post, well with the dozens of authors i love I’m not sure what your basis for “everyone” is. If like I think you are, you are referring to the given sources then see what I wrote above in this post..if something stinks we can be non judgemental and tolerant of these things but I think that shows a low regard for God’s word. If there is a bull in the china shop I see no reason not to yell BULL! Scripture is clear on the pure devastation of false teaching which is why we should guard the word so carefully, like a jewel. I mean we are not nitpicking interperatation of the Bible here. We are talking about core, traditional, historic Christian beliefs being mocked. How can anyone study the beauty of our salvation, the atonement, the propitiation, our total depravity, the passion of Christ, the wrath of God, and then look at the Shack or Mclaren and say it matches up? Really? Matt..”The Word has to be read in context to it’s day and time.” So the meaning changes? Salvation is different now then 2,000 years ago? I ‘m not sure where you are going with that. Your statement if it is in regards to presenting the same MEANING with contemporary examples would be another matter….I don’t feel our faith is being challenged or pushed to go deeper by these things, I think our precious faith and gospel is being changed and rewritten so people like it better. Oh and Lucas I stand by my comment that if anything is planting a seed in our head that scripture is not God breathed, true every word of it, clear in it’s meaning in regards to salvation we need to take those thoughts captive. ..peace(I know how thing read so I hope no anger, sarcasm, patronizing tone are heard in this. I think that has happened in other back in forths with others on this site. I love you guys and just want to share what is on my heart. Thanks
Marcus
Help me see where you are getting your statements. I’m trying to get this and maybe I’m slow. “We are reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which suggests Jesus is the male parent and the Holy Spirit is the female parent.” I thought we we’re transformed not conceived. Can you give me a verse where the Holy Spirit is referred to as the female parent? Is there a verse where God wants us to think of him as heavenly mother? Do we have the authority to say that is so? Where else besides The Shack is this taught? I guess I’m wondering why scripture is not sufficient for us any more? Why do we need these made up images?
D – I am just musing here on some ideas that I had when reading the Shack. Yes we are transformed not concieved, however birth requires parents and it just seems logical to me that if rebirth requires Jesus and the Holy Spirit they act within the Trinity as masculine and feminine aspects of God’s nature. If He made us in His image, male and female, then He must have a masculine and feminine aspect.
Scripture has everything we need, but somrtimes it helps us understand more when someone expresses it in a story. For me the Shack gave a new perspective on the Trinity and I feel it helped me understand better.
More important was the main message of the book, which is about repentance and forgivenss and moving on.
D,
I have seen many of these sites regarding the so called “false teaching” of the authors mentioned. To me there is a splitting of hairs. When I see the critiques, the critic is reading things into the writings and is taking everything literally. The Word of God itself is very poetic, figurative and symbolic. For instance in Matt. 24 v. 29-31…many people today read this and think that the Sun will literally be darkened and the moon will not give light and stars will literally fall from heaven. But this is written from the poetic of the O.T. profits. Christians of our era read this and thinkg these things are literally going to happen..but it is actually talking about a shift in National power and how Jesus dieing on the cross will effect this (ref. http://www.brow.on.ca/Articles/Wright.htm), not the apocolypse or second coming.
So that being said the Word of God is always the same but you have to read it in its historical context and find the authors meaning in their lauguage. Jesus spoke in parables…you can’t take the stories lirerally but look for the symbolic, figurative and poetic meanings. We in N. America read things very literally…but this is not what was meant by the original authors. We have to look at the historical context…which will always be the same…but over time man has interpreted to mean different.
Same thing when modern day writers write symbolically, when we apply our very concrete type thinking to it it doesn’t jive in our minds…but that could be because we are looking at and interpreting scripture incorrectly.
So that is what I mean when I say the Word is to be read in context to it’s day and time-historical.
As far as these Authors….I do hold the Word over what they are saying…and I don’t agree with everything in there…but if when God breathes a word on a teacher it is still put throught that teachers filter. There good in there and some not so good. If the apostle Paul had his way….women would remain completely silent in church. His culture dictated that….but I have been blessed by women who have shared a Word, Prayer or song of Worship. The Holy Spirit it me lets me know that is ok. So this is the lense for which I look at these writings and authors.
Matt
D- Scripture is clear on the pure devastation of false teaching which is why we should guard the word so carefully, like a jewel. I mean we are not nitpicking interperatation of the Bible here. We are talking about core, traditional, historic Christian beliefs being mocked. \>>
I love it and totally agree. However, my anti-heretic friends who work for websites like you site call the founder of “The Vineyard” , John Wimber, a heretic. Hence, my revulsion in the face of anti-heresy gone pharasaical. But, I personally have written a few things concerning heresy. It is a study too much left to “established” institutions of faith (like the Catholic church). And, some of these anti-heresy sites are run by faiths that do not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as is usually taught at Vineyard.
Matt Gambrell> As far as these Authors….I do hold the Word over what they are saying…and I don’t agree with everything in there…but if when God breathes a word on a teacher it is still put throught that teachers filter. There good in there and some not so good.>
I can’t believe I agree with Matt Gambrell, but I do. Just kidding.
Marcus>>D – I am just musing here on some ideas that I had when reading the Shack. Yes we are transformed not concieved,
One last note I like this topic. I like to think of our first birth and second birth (the born-again one) as both moments where we breathe the breath of life. We are “alive” before both events, but we receive an awakening to life that the “breath” of God infuses into us, first physical and second spiritual breath or wind (the Holy Spirit is often described like the wind). Gives new significance to breathing. And, I mean that literally.
Lucas,
You are PRECIOUS, PRICELESS and LOVED by GOD.
As iron sharpens iron, peace,
Matt
My apologies to Katie for my remark on the 18th about Feminism. I did not mean or wish to imply anything against the fairer sex. Undoubtedly us men have treated women indescribably and inescusably badly throughout history and perhaps even more so today. If you read my other blogs you know I believe Romans 1:20 “His invisible nature is clearly seen in the things that are made, even his invisible power and Godhead. Therefore we are all in the image of God and should be respected as such. Men have acted with the heart of the enemy towards women and we all have to repent with tears.
My comment was only meant towards the ideology that utilizes that resentment to sow hatred, break down the family, advocate the use of the word gender instead of sex, with the silent belief in only two sexes, male and female, but five genders – M, F, bi-sexual, transgender, and homosexual. Please forgive Marcus